What Caused Global Warming Before The Industrial Revolution?

[Evan B]

I don't see how we've completely glossed over one of the biggest issues on this topic

[bcmaui]

SDT - BILLS LAW WARNING BELOW

Solar activity and changes in the rotation and orbit of the planet have the most significant effects on the planet's temperature. Large volcanic eruptions, meteor strikes and other massive natural events can create short term (in geologic time) climate change events. We are slowly learning more and more about solar activity, but the environmentalists are blocking the construction of a new solar telescope about 10 miles (as the crow flies) from my house next to an existing telescope at the top of our mountain, so we could be learning even more.

Since we can not tax the sun for misbehaving, and many other nations that will have largest increases in future carbon emmissions (China, India, etc) and usually without the strict polultion controls we already have in place here, the "Cap and Trade" tax will do nothing benefical, just raise the cost of almost everything that energy touches in this country. This will lower our standard of living which is the ultimate intent of this movement. It will move the production of energy to nations that have lower pollution standards than we have, so may in effect create more pollution for the same amount of energy produced - an opposite effect of it's stated purpose.

My take on the entire Global Warming movement is it about trying to convice enough folks a reason for a newly created tax, even though it will do nothing to change the natural course of events. And all this new tax money will just go to fund the same things taxes fund now because it will drag down the economy even more, resulting in less overall taxes collected. That is after you have to convinced the masses that the gas that you exhale from your lungs (and that yeast excretes to make alcohol) and plants use for part of it's nutrition, is a pollutant.

Cap and Trade will serve, if passed, to drive more manufacturing and other energy intensive activities away from the US as the costs of staying here will not justify remaining here for many. It will lower our regional carbon footprint and standard of living, but not that of planet as a whole.

As our nation's manufacturing capacity and employment continues to decline and overall tax collections continue to fall as well, we will eventually wake up and elect folks that realize that the solution to the problem is not higher taxes and new taxes. Unless the government can employ all of us and no one is responsible for collecting any of the taxes, this trend will change. We just have to see how much unemployment folks will tolerate before the political pendulum swings the other direction as 10% of the folks change thier voting.

Hopefully this recent election can put the issue of race aside in the future and we can focus on the substance of policy rather than the charisma, race or gender issue. I am more concerned that we have folks regularly passing legislation with over 1,000 pages in it without reading it first than if that person is male or female, or what that person's ethnicity is. The amount of politcal rewards that are being handed out to selected groups (ACORN, UAW, etc.) in these times of economic hardship is eye opening and alarming.

[SacoDeToro]

SDT - BILLS LAW WARNING BELOW

Solar activity and changes in the rotation and orbit of the planet have the most significant effects on the planet's temperature. Large volcanic eruptions, meteor strikes and other massive natural events can create short term (in geologic time) climate change events. We are slowly learning more and more about solar activity, but the environmentalists are blocking the construction of a new solar telescope about 10 miles (as the crow flies) from my house next to an existing telescope at the top of our mountain, so we could be learning even more.

Since we can not tax the sun for misbehaving, and many other nations that will have largest increases in future carbon emmissions (China, India, etc) and usually without the strict polultion controls we already have in place here, the "Cap and Trade" tax will do nothing benefical, just raise the cost of almost everything that energy touches in this country. This will lower our standard of living which is the ultimate intent of this movement. It will move the production of energy to nations that have lower pollution standards than we have, so may in effect create more pollution for the same amount of energy produced - an opposite effect of it's staed purpose.

My take on the entire Global Warming movement is it about trying to convice enough folks a reason for a newly created tax, even though it will do nothing to change the natural course of events. And all this new tax money will just go to fund the same things taxes fund now because it will drag down the economy even more, resulting in less overall taxes collected. That is after you have to convinced the masses that the gas that you exhale from your lungs (and that yeast excretes to make alcohol) and plants use for part of it's nutrition, is a pollutant.

Cap and Trade will serve, if passed, to drive more manufacturing and other energy intensive activities away from the US as the costs of staying here will not justify remaining here for many. It will lower our regional carbon footprint and standard of living, but not that of planet as a whole.

As our nation's manufacturing capacity and employment continues to decline and overall tax collections continue to fall as well, we will eventually wake up and elect folks that realize that the solution to the problem is not higher taxes and new taxes. Unless the government can employ all of us and no one is responsible for collecting any of the taxes, this trend will change. We just have to see how much unemployment folks will tolerate before the political pendulum swings the other direction as 10% of the folks change thier voting.

Hopefully this recent election can put the issue of race aside in the future and we can focus on the substance of policy rather than the charisma, race or gender issue. I am more concerned that we folks regularly passing legislation with over 1,000 pages in it without reading it first than if that person is male or female, or what that person's ethnicity is. The amount of politcal rewards that are being handed out to selected groups (ACORN, UAW, etc.) in these times of economic hardship is eye opening and alarming.

[TapItGood]

There you go Julian, Bill's Law, right on que.

[bcmaui]

There you go Julian, Bill's Law, right on que.

Note that I waited until we were 6 pages in and did give SDT proper recognition for his law at the beginning of my post.

We can disagree on the science - but either way how is "Cap and Trade" going to reduce the planet's overall CO2 emissions if it is a problem and something humans can control?

[fastdogbrewing]

There you go Julian, Bill's Law, right on que.

Note that I waited until we were 6 pages in and did give SDT proper recognition for his law at the beginning of my post.

We can disagree on the science - but either way how is "Cap and Trade" going to reduce the planet's overall CO2 emissions if it is a problem and something humans can control?

IMHO Cap and Trade could have worked if they actually stuck with selling the credits and using the money to build infrastructure and fund R&D. But they did not, and now Cap and Trade has gone from a method to control CO2 emissions and raise money to fund alternatives to a method for the government to control WHO gets to pollute, and how much they get to. Not hard to see why some people think it will drive manufacturing over seas, though I don't think it's really going to be as much about the energy costs, and more about having to beg the Energy Department for permission.

[bcmaui]

....Cap and Trade has gone from a method to control CO2 emissions and raise money to fund alternatives to a method for the government to control WHO gets to pollute, and how much they get to.

It has failed in Europe already. Making a larger version of the program here will not make it a success, other than reward some of the select few at the expense of the many.

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/c ... 228781.htm

Saying and doing are two separate things

http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 43,00.html

[fastdogbrewing]

....Cap and Trade has gone from a method to control CO2 emissions and raise money to fund alternatives to a method for the government to control WHO gets to pollute, and how much they get to.

It has failed in Europe already. Making a larger version of the program here will not make it a success, other than reward some of the select few at the expense of the many.

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/c ... 228781.htm

Neat! Goes back to what I have been saying. Schemes like this do not work. They will not help the environment, they will create massive new branches of the government that will be busy deciding who can and who can not pollute. In the end noone will be thinking about how to reduce their impact on the world, all they will be thinking about is better ways to play the carbon trading system and screw the little guy. That is what will drive industry out of this country.