Re: comp scoring question

Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:04 pm

Most comps don't offer up a calibration beer. Even then, it's so that the judges can zero in on each other, not as a great example of the style.

Like the other judges in the thread said, it's not science. It IS very tough to get right. If YOU want to wake up early on a Saturday morning, drive an hour to get there before 9am, and have sampled a dozen or so Stouts and Porters before noon, then please, take the test and help us out. God knows we could use you.

My best advice to those receiving score sheets is to NOT dwell on the absolute number, but really its the RANGE. If I give it a 32 and the other judge gives it a 34, then we are in agreement that it's a decent beer, probably one or two minor flaws, and/or lacking in some aspects that would make it a standout. Examples of those factors might include things such as balance out of whack or a bit too thin or a bit too estery or wrong hopping levels, or something like that. In the 40+ levels, it's a DAMN good beer, definitely a contender to win BOS. In the teens or low 20's, its got some problems. 25 to about 30 are the pretty typical average home brews with a couple apparent faults. 31-35 - decent, slight flaws.

The little guide that gives the ranges is how you need to consider the scores. That's what I (and all the other judges I've ever judged with) go for, then the numbers may be tweaked a little just to ensure that the right final placement happens within the flight. Honestly, I think the upper-middle range beers right around 35 give or take are the toughest to score. They are fine, well made, very solid, enjoyable beers. Not a whole lot wrong with them. Usually it's the subtle intangibles that tend to differentiate those from the "holy shit that's really fucking phenomenal" ones. They simply aren't the VERY BEST examples of the style.

Split flights that go to mini BOS's also cause TONS of confusion. A really solid beer that scores a 36 in one half of the flight goes to mini-BOS and comes in second behind another one that scored a 35 in the other half. Sorry folks. Both are really good, solid beers, need some little bit of a tweak to push them up to awesome, but the lower scoring beer had something about it that the mini-BOS judges deemed better. They don't know whose beers they are, so they aren't out to screw anybody. One just comes across as better than the other, and that's how they end up being placed relative to each other, contrary to the numerical scores.

The other thing is that I try to do my damndest to write down all that I perceive, have the score match appropriately, and then try to offer guidance in the form of things to concentrate on, such as "work on reducing ester levels, possibly by controlling fermentation temps or maybe using a different yeast strain". I try my best NOT to assume what the brewer used or the process he followed, so you'll most likely find lots of question marks and "possibly's" in my feedback. I do this hoping that it jogs the brewer's thought process into finding the solution more than it serves as THE solution. Everybody knows not to boil with the cover on, so telling them "don't boil with the cover on" doesn't help. Instead, I'll write something like "Work on reducing your DMS (vegetal/cooked corn) levels. Maybe a longer boil or faster wort chilling might help?"

I also always add my email address (usually using the BJCP stickers - much easier and more legible than writing them all out) so that the brewers can contact me later if he wants to. So far, not a single person has. I sincerely hope that's a good thing and not a bad thing. PLEASE send me an email if you think I totally fucked something up or if you can't read my shitty handwriting. I try to do a good job, but I freely admit that I'm very far from perfect. Send the judge an email. That's why he puts it on the score sheet, or at least that's why I include it.

Well, I hope this demystifies it a LITTLE bit for somebody. At least, you might be able to understand this is how I frame myself when I judge.

:nutters:
-B'Dawg
BJCP GM3 Judge & Mead
"Lunch Meat. It's an acquired taste....." -- Mylo
User avatar
BDawg
 
Posts: 4993
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:27 pm
Location: North Bend, WA

Re: comp scoring question

Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:22 am

BDawg wrote:I also always add my email address (usually using the BJCP stickers - much easier and more legible than writing them all out) so that the brewers can contact me later if he wants to. So far, not a single person has.



Not true, I have asked you specifics about score sheets you have filled out for me in the past. :asshat:


Oh, and getting score sheets back from Bdawg is a real treat. He provides some of the best feed back if have received to date from any competition. Im suprised at the amount he writes on every sheet.
Cheers!
Tavish
---------------------------------------------
An empty kegerator is a crime against humanity. -Dirk McLargeHuge
Milk is for babies. When you grow up you have to drink beer. - Arnold Schwarzenegger
Where the fuck is the BACON???????? - Bdawg
User avatar
tavish2
 
Posts: 1097
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:49 am
Location: Bothell, WA

Re: comp scoring question

Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:58 am

BDawg wrote: Like the other judges in the thread said, it's not science. It IS very tough to get right. If YOU want to wake up early on a Saturday morning, drive an hour to get there before 9am, and have sampled a dozen or so Stouts and Porters before noon, then please, take the test and help us out. God knows we could use you.


Well said, BDwag. I've been judging for about three years and I can attest, it is not easy; and it’s definitely not a science. I know that there are a number of douches out there, but that's life.

I try my best to fill the sheet, and I like to think that most judges do as well. Sometimes I'll flip the damn thing over and keep writing. Please keep in mind, when you're pushing three, four, eight hundred beers through a competition, it's very difficult to spend the time and give the detail you would like to. I know, it's a flaw in the competition format, but unless more people step up, take the test, and volunteer, it is what it is. If you are truly unhappy with your judge sheet, email the judge or report them to the BJCP http://www.bjcp.org/contact.php. I also list my email address on every sheet. Please email me if you have a question about what I wrote. I’m even to talk to you if you think I’m full of shit….maybe you’ll help to change my opinon.

boobookittyfuk wrote...i almost think that they should not allow apprentice judges to actually judge. If you fail the exam, there most likely is a good reason for it. But i guess that some regions are in need of anyone willing to fill out score sheets for no pay.


I have to respectfully disagree, booboo. If the novice judges don’t get the experience, how will they ever learn? We’re in the second year of our competition, and our goal is to have at least three judges at each table. The intent is to include a novice judge with two experienced judges. It’s really a win win situation. The brewer gets three evaluations, and the new judge gets experience. More importantly, we’ve demystified the judging process for the new judges and have, hopefully, expanded the ranks of the BJCP judges. People have to start somewhere. Every judge was a rookie at sometime, and most of us (including myself) still have a lot to learn. Hell, unfortunately, a lot of brewers think that all judges are full of shit anyway. My advice to everyone is to give it a try. We all know that a lot of competitions are hurting for judges.
Crupp
________________
Fermenting: Saison, ESB

On tap: 09 Cider, American Mild, Dark Mild II, American Wheat, Hefe, Traditional Mead, Belgian Blond
User avatar
crupp
 
Posts: 552
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:48 pm

Re: comp scoring question

Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:59 pm

tavish2 wrote:
BDawg wrote:I also always add my email address (usually using the BJCP stickers - much easier and more legible than writing them all out) so that the brewers can contact me later if he wants to. So far, not a single person has.



Not true, I have asked you specifics about score sheets you have filled out for me in the past. :asshat:


Yeah, you're right, Tav. I guess the way I should have said it is that I've never gotten an email back from somebody I didn't already know.

Oh, and getting score sheets back from Bdawg is a real treat. He provides some of the best feed back if have received to date from any competition. Im suprised at the amount he writes on every sheet.


Thanks, dude :oops: I'm flattered. Glad you get something out of 'em
-B'Dawg
BJCP GM3 Judge & Mead
"Lunch Meat. It's an acquired taste....." -- Mylo
User avatar
BDawg
 
Posts: 4993
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:27 pm
Location: North Bend, WA

Re: comp scoring question

Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:44 am

BDawg wrote:
tavish2 wrote:
BDawg wrote:I also always add my email address (usually using the BJCP stickers - much easier and more legible than writing them all out) so that the brewers can contact me later if he wants to. So far, not a single person has.



Not true, I have asked you specifics about score sheets you have filled out for me in the past. :asshat:


Yeah, you're right, Tav. I guess the way I should have said it is that I've never gotten an email back from somebody I didn't already know.

Oh, and getting score sheets back from Bdawg is a real treat. He provides some of the best feed back if have received to date from any competition. Im suprised at the amount he writes on every sheet.


Thanks, dude :oops: I'm flattered. Glad you get something out of 'em




hey bdawg,

ever flip the sheet over and write more on the back?
suck it
User avatar
boobookittyfuk
 
Posts: 1871
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:13 pm
Location: pittsburgh

Re: comp scoring question

Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:27 pm

boobookittyfuk wrote: hey bdawg,

ever flip the sheet over and write more on the back?


Yes, I did just that about 3 weeks ago.

Had a beer that several of us couldn't put our finger on the problem. There was some kind of a single funky off flavor that didn't taste like anything I'd ever tasted before. I continued on the back and even directly asked (almost begged) him to email me up because I sincerely wanted to be able to try to help figure out what this weird off flavor was. This was for an in-our-own-club competition, so the brewer was another member of our club and he must know me. I would have kept writing on the back anyway even if it was a larger unrestricted comp. Unfortunately, he never did email me back. Too bad, too, because I thought the base beer was quite good (and said so on the front of the score sheet).

Oh well.
-B'Dawg
BJCP GM3 Judge & Mead
"Lunch Meat. It's an acquired taste....." -- Mylo
User avatar
BDawg
 
Posts: 4993
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:27 pm
Location: North Bend, WA

Re: comp scoring question

Sun May 31, 2009 6:32 pm

BDawg wrote:Had a beer that several of us couldn't put our finger on the problem. There was some kind of a single funky off flavor that didn't taste like anything I'd ever tasted before. I continued on the back and even directly asked (almost begged) him to email me up because I sincerely wanted to be able to try to help figure out what this weird off flavor was. This was for an in-our-own-club competition, so the brewer was another member of our club and he must know me. I would have kept writing on the back anyway even if it was a larger unrestricted comp. Unfortunately, he never did email me back. Too bad, too, because I thought the base beer was quite good (and said so on the front of the score sheet).


I've been there too BDawg: sensory perception is a messy, human affair. Judges are not lab equipment that can accurate measure the chemical components of beer with exact precision. A lot of the frustrations that I hear brewers voice about the judging process stem from this issue. For example, I'm incredibly sensitive to clove-like phenols but I have a hard time identifying DMS. I've met judges with different handicaps (say, not familiar with qualities of oxidation) and strengths (like, super sensistive to diacetyl).

In a panel of 3 judges, sometimes one guy is at 42 and the other two are at 29. We discuss and try and see if there is a flaw that the 42 judge is just not perceiving. But what if that 42 judge is judging a flight 2 weeks later with only one other judge who is also less sensitive to that flaw? This is one scenario where you can have crazy swings in scores from week to week or mismatched scores in a mini BOS. I would love to have 3-4 BJCP Recognized or higher judges per flight, but that is not always possible.

And I've also judged beers that have a flaw that we just cannot specifically identify. Some combination of sensory limitation and inexperience prevents the judges from making an accurate diagnosis. This is one scenario where you give the beer a mid 30's score without being able offer a clear example of the off flavor more than a vague "misses the mark" type comment. That is very frustrating for the brewer, but is also frustrating for the judge who really did try for 10-15 mins to properly evaluate the beer.

I want as many people as possible to enter their beers in competition. I also want as many brewers as possible to take the BJCP exam and start judging. There are fleas in how beer is judged, but I really think that most BJCP judges like BDawg try really, really hard to give accurate and useful feedback. I would urge brewers to view their judging sheets from a statistical viewpoint to weed-out the "fleas" I referred to. Enter a beer in 3 or 4 comps to get a decent sample of score sheets. Place a greater weight to judges who seem to have taken the time to fill out the sheet in detail. The small percentage of judges who are douchebags are not going to spend the time to fill the form out properly. The judges who do fill the form out in detail have really tried their best to properly evaluate your beer and give you the best feedback that their senses and experience can muster.

The best solution is for more experienced brewers to man up and take the BJCP exam and help make judging as a whole better. Your palate and experience can help make everyone else better.

jacbop
Chicago, IL
BJCP A0635 Certified
jacbop
(aka Tom Wilberding, The Uniballer)
Chicago, IL
ImageSergeant, BN Army
User avatar
jacbop
 
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:40 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: comp scoring question

Sun May 31, 2009 7:43 pm

Well said - I couldn't agree more, Jacbop. :bnarmy: :aaron

(and right back at ya - it's obvious that you are one of those guys who cares too!)
-B'Dawg
BJCP GM3 Judge & Mead
"Lunch Meat. It's an acquired taste....." -- Mylo
User avatar
BDawg
 
Posts: 4993
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:27 pm
Location: North Bend, WA

PreviousNext

Return to General Beer Related

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

A BIT ABOUT US

The Brewing Network is a multimedia resource for brewers and beer lovers. Since 2005, we have been the leader in craft beer entertainment and information with live beer radio, podcasts, video, events and more.