Beer Forum

I've not done much recipe design for Belgian styles (and as I'm sure you all know Designing Great Beers is silent on the subject) so was hoping for some feedback before I do this. The goal is to make something big and lush to break in my new Ferrari corker. I'll probably split the batch post-primary with half getting bugs/critters and some dark fruit (à la RR Consecration).

Batch Size 19L
Mash @152ºF
OG 1.090
IBU 36
SRM 21
ABV 11%

Grist
9.20kg Pilsner Malt
0.45kg Special B
0.90kg Dark Candi Syrup @high krausen

Hops
50g Hallertau @90

Yeast
Wyeast 3711 French Saison

I have an equal amount of the D2 Candi Syrup. Anybody think splitting it 0.45kg of each or completely subbing it for the DCS would be better? From the flavor description on the Dark Candi website I thought the regular DCS was a better fit but am open to suggestions.

I have only recently done my first Tripel with sugar additions during the ferment.

I would have thought the IBU's could be seen as a tad high, the warming alcohol and malt should be more on the palette than the bitterness.

I would split the candi sugar additions into 2 or 3 lots and add each subsequent addition to the fermenting wort/beer once krausen starts to subside.

Is the saison yeast going to throw out too much 'winey' characteristic, are you better going with a belgian yeast (1388 or a 3522 say?)

Just my 2c though.

I really like the D2 syrup over the D syrup, as it adds some deeper dark fruits, toffee, and a whiff of chocolate roast that you don't get from the D. Where were you hoping to finish with regards to a FG? Have you brewed with 3711 before? The only reason I ask that is because that yeast is EXTREMELY attenuative. A 152 mash might not be high enough to keep that beer from drying out too much depending on where you want it. As said above, it is also very citrusy and spicy. If that is what you want in your dark belgian ale than by all means go for it. But you will be missing those fruity esters and classic belgian phenolics you could get from fermenting a good belgian strain at the right temps. Some character malts may help to add some malt complexity and toast (like a couple pounds of munich/vienna, or maybe even 1# aromatic). Otherwise, recipe looks tasty!

raven19 wrote:I would have thought the IBU's could be seen as a tad high, the warming alcohol and malt should be more on the palette than the bitterness.

Perhaps a touch high; the BJCP says 35 IBU is the top end of the Belgian dark strong style. If I move them to 60 minutes then I'm right at 35.

raven19 wrote:I would split the candi sugar additions into 2 or 3 lots and add each subsequent addition to the fermenting wort/beer once krausen starts to subside.

Like half 48 hours in and the other half at 96 hours? My experience with 3711 has been that it hits high krausen fast and then drops it nearly as fast and generally within 96 hours it's at or above 80% AA.

raven19 wrote:Is the saison yeast going to throw out too much 'winey' characteristic, are you better going with a belgian yeast (1388 or a 3522 say?)

I've used 3711 for a variety of beers and find that fermentation temperature dictates a lot of the characteristics you end up with. I split my last saison and fermented half at 75ºF and half at 65ºF and found the cold half to have very little of the spicy, peppery phenolics that the hot half had. The cold half also seemed to keep the attenuation from running away (85% vs. 98%) yet retained the silky mouthfeel I love in the 3711. I was planning on fermenting in the mid 60s but since the plan was to split the batch anyhow maybe I'll split it up front and use a more traditional BDS yeast for the half to get the bugs and the 3711 for the clean half.

brewinhard wrote:I really like the D2 syrup over the D syrup, as it adds some deeper dark fruits, toffee, and a whiff of chocolate roast that you don't get from the D.

The more I think about and the more feedback I get I'm thinking split the batch up front and do half as a more traditional BDS and half as my random Belgian deal. The traditional half would get the D2 and bugs/critters/fruit(s).

brewinhard wrote:Where were you hoping to finish with regards to a FG? Have you brewed with 3711 before? The only reason I ask that is because that yeast is EXTREMELY attenuative. A 152 mash might not be high enough to keep that beer from drying out too much depending on where you want it. But you will be missing those fruity esters and classic belgian phenolics you could get from fermenting a good belgian strain at the right temps.

I think the only yeast I've used more than 3711 is 001. I just love it. I'm aiming at 1010-1015 FG; there aren't many beers I've made that finish higher that I've ever been very fond of. I found low fermentation temps keep most of its peppery attributes at bay while keeping it from heading into the 95+% AA range. When I started the recipe I had the mash temp. at 156ºF for that exact reason but I wimped out and dropped it to 152 when I saw JZ does his at 153 in BCS. What mash temp. would you go for? 154? Or would 156 actually be a sane temp. for the monster that is 3711?

brewinhard wrote:Some character malts may help to add some malt complexity and toast (like a couple pounds of munich/vienna, or maybe even 1# aromatic). Otherwise, recipe looks tasty!

I was trying to make it out of ingredients I had on hand. How do you think CaraMunich III would be as a supplemental malt? Or should I just break down and buy a half kilo. of Aromatic? Maybe both?

Thanks for the advice guys.

Will keep an eye on the boards to see how this one develops for sure.

Good luck with it!

Keep us posted too once you brew it.

jm wrote:

brewinhard wrote:I really like the D2 syrup over the D syrup, as it adds some deeper dark fruits, toffee, and a whiff of chocolate roast that you don't get from the D.

The more I think about and the more feedback I get I'm thinking split the batch up front and do half as a more traditional BDS and half as my random Belgian deal. The traditional half would get the D2 and bugs/critters/fruit(s).

brewinhard wrote:Where were you hoping to finish with regards to a FG? Have you brewed with 3711 before? The only reason I ask that is because that yeast is EXTREMELY attenuative. A 152 mash might not be high enough to keep that beer from drying out too much depending on where you want it. But you will be missing those fruity esters and classic belgian phenolics you could get from fermenting a good belgian strain at the right temps.

I think the only yeast I've used more than 3711 is 001. I just love it. I'm aiming at 1010-1015 FG; there aren't many beers I've made that finish higher that I've ever been very fond of. I found low fermentation temps keep most of its peppery attributes at bay while keeping it from heading into the 95+% AA range. When I started the recipe I had the mash temp. at 156ºF for that exact reason but I wimped out and dropped it to 152 when I saw JZ does his at 153 in BCS. What mash temp. would you go for? 154? Or would 156 actually be a sane temp. for the monster that is 3711?

brewinhard wrote:Some character malts may help to add some malt complexity and toast (like a couple pounds of munich/vienna, or maybe even 1# aromatic). Otherwise, recipe looks tasty!

I was trying to make it out of ingredients I had on hand. How do you think CaraMunich III would be as a supplemental malt? Or should I just break down and buy a half kilo. of Aromatic? Maybe both?

Thanks for the advice guys.

If you are going to add bugs, then you will want a somewhat high FG so the bugs have some residual sugars left to eat during the extended aging. If you are using the 3711, then I would mash at least at 156 deg. and still ferment on your cool end like you said. I would add ALL the candi syrup into your boil as that is where the beer will benefit from it most. Not with increments as you would then have to boil it later on separately...why not increase the complexity of your full batch during the boil? Saves time, less work, and reduces the slight risk of infection by messing with your fermenter more than necessary.

I think caramunich III would go well with your recipe but don't add over 1# for a 5 gallon batch as you already have quite a bit of special B in there. I would add some aromatic (maybe 12 oz to 1#) to boost the malt depth as well. Here is another tip if your beer finishes too dry for the bugs to work well and leave some good body behind in the finished product - add back some boiled and cooled maltodextrin to give the brett/bacteria something to chow on for a bit. 8 oz of maltodextrin will give you 4 gravity points in a 5 gallon batch for the bugs to do their thing. Just some more ideas to mull over before pulling the trigger!

brewinhard wrote:Just some more ideas to mull over before pulling the trigger!

Thanks for all the great feedback you talked me down from the ledge

I'm going to man-up and go for a full batch of something Consecration-ish. Of course any more wisdom you want to drop will be appreciated.

OG 1.073
FG 1.014 (pre-secondary)
IBU 22
SRM 27
ABV ~10% (at bottling)

Grist
7.0kg Pils
1.5kg Aromatic
0.2kg Special B
0.9kg Dark² Candi Syrup in boil
0.2kg Dextrose in boil
mash at 154ºF

Hops
35g Hallertau @60

Primary
Abbey Ale WLP530

Secondary
Brett. B.
1kg dried currants
30g American Medium+ oak cubes (lightly soaked in Cabernet Sauvignon)

Tertiary
Brett. B.
Lactobacillus
Pediococcus
possibly more oak cubes depending on flavor

Conditioning
Rockpile & Brett. B. going for 4-5 volumes

"Tertiary" is probably a misnomer since all that will go into the same vessel as the secondary it's just to show that there is some time in between the additions which is based on an email from Vinnie.